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i would say maybe a piece or two....but i would lean more towards making it a treat. like 3 or 4 pieces every other day in a separate dish.
Time for a change?
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Ok thanks.
Thats great! I found something I can use as a treat
I got it mixed with that other stuff she was on for now until I can find something better.
Thats great! I found something I can use as a treat
I got it mixed with that other stuff she was on for now until I can find something better.
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you should have been doing a very slow transition anyway so it would limit upset stomach....you may have a few days of soft stools since their little bellies can be resistant to change.
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Oh I am doing it slow.
She has not completly come off the old stuff yet. I just mix in a spoonfull into her bowl with the stuff she's use to so she don't get an upset tummy or anything.
Thanks
She has not completly come off the old stuff yet. I just mix in a spoonfull into her bowl with the stuff she's use to so she don't get an upset tummy or anything.
Thanks
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125 Posts
In my opinion, if it were my hedgehog and my only options were Purina Cat Chow or Iams Healthy Naturals, I would definitely opt for the IAMS. I just looked it up, and it does have Chicken as the first ingredient, as well as some fish oil and dried vegetables. And from a quick glance I didn't seen any artificial preservatives, flavors, or dyes (I could be wrong). Yes, it has by-products and corn as the second and third ingredients which is not ideal, and the fat content is at a minimum of 15% which is on the higher end, but the Purina Cat Chow has no real meat whatsoever (I'd compare it to cardboard). So, at least the IAMS is a step up from that.
So, my advice would be to stick with the just IAMS (with NO cat chow) until you can get a hold of a better quality food that is all natural, contains real meat or meat meal, and doesn't have any by-products or fillers like corn in the first 3-4 ingredients (preferably not at all).
If you haven't already done so, just print out Reapers list and take it with you to the pet store. You should be able to ask the employees if they have any brands on the list, or at least know of any food that is all natural and contains no by-products or fillers, and if all else fails just hang out and read ingredient labels. And as everyone has already mentioned, you won't be able to find high-quality cat food at a grocery store. Try every pet store and feed store around, and someone is bound to have something...
So, my advice would be to stick with the just IAMS (with NO cat chow) until you can get a hold of a better quality food that is all natural, contains real meat or meat meal, and doesn't have any by-products or fillers like corn in the first 3-4 ingredients (preferably not at all).
If you haven't already done so, just print out Reapers list and take it with you to the pet store. You should be able to ask the employees if they have any brands on the list, or at least know of any food that is all natural and contains no by-products or fillers, and if all else fails just hang out and read ingredient labels. And as everyone has already mentioned, you won't be able to find high-quality cat food at a grocery store. Try every pet store and feed store around, and someone is bound to have something...
I would suggest getting her off of the Iam's as well. It contains sodium bisulfate. I had no idea what sodium bisulfate was so I looked it up.
Sodium bisulfate is a harmful acid that can harm you if it is swallowed, breathed in, or touched. • Reviewer: Eric Perez, MD, Department of Emergency Medicine, St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center, New York, NY. Review provided by VeriMed Healthcare Network.
And here is the link on wikipedia. Anyone with some chemistry background can tell you how awful this stuff is. I wouldn't want to eat it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate
Sodium bisulfate is a harmful acid that can harm you if it is swallowed, breathed in, or touched. • Reviewer: Eric Perez, MD, Department of Emergency Medicine, St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center, New York, NY. Review provided by VeriMed Healthcare Network.
And here is the link on wikipedia. Anyone with some chemistry background can tell you how awful this stuff is. I wouldn't want to eat it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate
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Thanks for that info Reaper! I'm trying to learn all the "bad" stuff that companies can put in the food, but the list just seems to be never ending...it's like learning a foreign language!Reaper said:
Yes it is. Sodium bisulfate is a "by-product" of sulfuric acid or what is commonly called "battery acid". It is the acid used in the majority of all lead acid batteries found in cars, motorcycles, boats, etc. Really nasty stuff. Trying to keep up with the pet food industry chemists is a full time job for someone.
I found this interesting:
USES:
* Household cleaners, Sani-Flush, for example (roughly 45%)
* Silver pickling
* To reduce alkalinity and pH in swimming pools
* In pet foods[1]
* As a preservative for soil and water samples in analytical laboratory analysis
USES:
* Household cleaners, Sani-Flush, for example (roughly 45%)
* Silver pickling
* To reduce alkalinity and pH in swimming pools
* In pet foods[1]
* As a preservative for soil and water samples in analytical laboratory analysis
This is an edited version of the information i presented earlier. It was brought to my attention more research needed to be done.
Making NaHSO4
Sodium Bisulfate is a molecule that is created one of two ways: the most cost effective way is to combine Table Salt and Sulfuric Acid (both cheap and readily available). By creating Sodium Bisulfate in this method Hydrochloric Acid is also produced and is sold to chemical companies to resell, thus making money back off of the purchase of the sulfuric acid. The second way is to use Sodium Hydroxide and Sulfuric Acid in a very precise stoichiometric measurements to create Sodium Bisulfate in Water, but this yields no byproducts that can be sold.
About NaHSO4
-Sodium bisulfate is acidic when in solution, and at 1M can produce a PH level of 1.4. Sulfuric acid on the other hand will produce a PH of just under 1 at 1 Molar.
-Sodium Bisulfate can be dissolved in water and ionizes almost completely.
-Sodium Bisulfate can be used to increase the PH level of a system.
-Castor&Pollox say "Sodium Bisulfate is included to help promote the proper urine pH needed to maintain a healthy urinary tract in cats."
It is defined by Answers.com as:
Menadione is a synthetic molecule used to promote the production of artificial Vitamin K in an organic creature. Menadion by itself has a chemical structure of C11H8O2 and is non-polar and will not dissolve in water. While Menadione is a very cheap form of vitamin K (known as K3) it does have some very serious side effects. Menadione is banned from use in humans as it is known to cause the following chronic health problems as taken from the MSDS sheet for Menadione.
This is the chemical to be wary of. On an ingredient list, as stated by Susan Thixton (a 16 year researcher into bad pet foods):
Reasoning behind using K3
Menadione Sodium Bisulfate is used as an artificial vitamin K. I assume the pet companies use the NaHS04 (Known as Vitamin K3) to boost the Vitamin K levels. Sodium Bisulfate is much cheaper than natural Vitamin K (Known as Vitamin K1)
Vitamin K deficiencies lead to blood clotting in the stomach and can cause intestinal problems. Doing a quick search vets use natural Vitamin K (K1) as a shot to help cats and dogs who have ingested rat poison which causes internal bleeding.
Pet companies then begin looking to add Vitamin K to their food in order to help prevent internal bleeding in cats and dogs and help to keep their intestines cleansed, but no where does is describe the recommended amount of Vitamin K needed in dogs or cats.
Natural Vitamin K (K1)
Natural Vitamin K (K1) Comes from leafy greens like lettuce, but these greens provide little other nutritional benefits and i assume it is to hard to extract the Vitamin K (K1).
A good source of Vitamin K (K1) for pet foods is found in alfalfa (which Mika feeds to her birthing mothers as it prevents internal bleeding) and kelp. It is much to expensive for many pet food companies to put fresh alfalfa into their foods or take the time to extract the K1, so they decided to use the VERY inexpensive K3, which can be produced one of two ways.
Is Menadione Sodium Bisulfate in your Pet's Food?
Chances are... NO
Partially because of Susan Thixton's pet food crusade Menadione was getting a bad rap, and companies began taking it out of their pet food. Some companies however hid it as Vitamin K (without specifying if it was natural or not) or just as Sodium Bisulfate.
The only way to be sure is to directly contact you pet food company and ask if they have Menadione or artificial vitamin K in their food. Foods to keep an eye on are ones that contain Sodium Bisulfate as it may be written as such to disguise the Menadione. If your pet food contains Sodium Bisulfate it is best to ask your pet food company what the use of the sodium bisulfate is for.
Here is some more info:
Sodium bisulfate is NaHSO4
Menadione Sodium Bisulfate is C11H9O5SNa and is arranged in a more aromatic fashion
Menadione Sodium Bisulfate
Potential Acute Health Effects:
Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation
(lung irritant).
Potential Chronic Health Effects:
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: 3 (Not classifiable for human.) by IARC.
MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells.
TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available.
The substance is toxic to kidneys, lungs, liver, mucous membranes.
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.
Sodium Bisulfate
Potential Acute Health Effects:
Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Hazardous in
case of skin contact (corrosive, permeator). The amount of tissue damage depends on length of contact. Eye
contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.
Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing
and coughing. Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.
Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by
itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering.
Potential Chronic Health Effects:
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast.
TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
From what more research i have done, the Sodium Bisulfate is added to the Menadione in order to make it water soluble.
Menadione on it's own is what triggers the production of vitamin K, the sodium bisulfate is just sued to allow it to disolve in water. Sodium Bisulfate by itself is not toxic, and does have a very acidic tendency, and in the right concentrations can be as acidic as sulfuric acid from which it is derived.
Menadione on its own has a chemical structure of C11H8O2 allowing the sodium bisulfate to drop an oxygen and latch onto the menadione group.
Now sodium bisulfate in itself is not hazardous, but Menadione Sodium Bisulfate and legally be placed in the ingredients list of a pet food as "Sodium Bisulfate" as that is a more common chemical name for the substance.
Making NaHSO4
Sodium Bisulfate is a molecule that is created one of two ways: the most cost effective way is to combine Table Salt and Sulfuric Acid (both cheap and readily available). By creating Sodium Bisulfate in this method Hydrochloric Acid is also produced and is sold to chemical companies to resell, thus making money back off of the purchase of the sulfuric acid. The second way is to use Sodium Hydroxide and Sulfuric Acid in a very precise stoichiometric measurements to create Sodium Bisulfate in Water, but this yields no byproducts that can be sold.
About NaHSO4
-Sodium bisulfate is acidic when in solution, and at 1M can produce a PH level of 1.4. Sulfuric acid on the other hand will produce a PH of just under 1 at 1 Molar.
-Sodium Bisulfate can be dissolved in water and ionizes almost completely.
-Sodium Bisulfate can be used to increase the PH level of a system.
-Castor&Pollox say "Sodium Bisulfate is included to help promote the proper urine pH needed to maintain a healthy urinary tract in cats."
It is defined by Answers.com as:
Menadione
Menadione is a synthetic molecule used to promote the production of artificial Vitamin K in an organic creature. Menadion by itself has a chemical structure of C11H8O2 and is non-polar and will not dissolve in water. While Menadione is a very cheap form of vitamin K (known as K3) it does have some very serious side effects. Menadione is banned from use in humans as it is known to cause the following chronic health problems as taken from the MSDS sheet for Menadione.
Menadion Sodium Bisulfate
This is the chemical to be wary of. On an ingredient list, as stated by Susan Thixton (a 16 year researcher into bad pet foods):
The scariest part is:
Sodium Bisulfate is combined with Menadione in order to allow it to dissolve in water, which is a polar solution. Without the sodium bisulfate, menadione would not be practical to use in pet foods.
Reasoning behind using K3
Menadione Sodium Bisulfate is used as an artificial vitamin K. I assume the pet companies use the NaHS04 (Known as Vitamin K3) to boost the Vitamin K levels. Sodium Bisulfate is much cheaper than natural Vitamin K (Known as Vitamin K1)
Vitamin K deficiencies lead to blood clotting in the stomach and can cause intestinal problems. Doing a quick search vets use natural Vitamin K (K1) as a shot to help cats and dogs who have ingested rat poison which causes internal bleeding.
Pet companies then begin looking to add Vitamin K to their food in order to help prevent internal bleeding in cats and dogs and help to keep their intestines cleansed, but no where does is describe the recommended amount of Vitamin K needed in dogs or cats.
Natural Vitamin K (K1)
Natural Vitamin K (K1) Comes from leafy greens like lettuce, but these greens provide little other nutritional benefits and i assume it is to hard to extract the Vitamin K (K1).
A good source of Vitamin K (K1) for pet foods is found in alfalfa (which Mika feeds to her birthing mothers as it prevents internal bleeding) and kelp. It is much to expensive for many pet food companies to put fresh alfalfa into their foods or take the time to extract the K1, so they decided to use the VERY inexpensive K3, which can be produced one of two ways.
Is Menadione Sodium Bisulfate in your Pet's Food?
Chances are... NO
Partially because of Susan Thixton's pet food crusade Menadione was getting a bad rap, and companies began taking it out of their pet food. Some companies however hid it as Vitamin K (without specifying if it was natural or not) or just as Sodium Bisulfate.
The only way to be sure is to directly contact you pet food company and ask if they have Menadione or artificial vitamin K in their food. Foods to keep an eye on are ones that contain Sodium Bisulfate as it may be written as such to disguise the Menadione. If your pet food contains Sodium Bisulfate it is best to ask your pet food company what the use of the sodium bisulfate is for.
Here is some more info:
Sodium bisulfate is NaHSO4
Menadione Sodium Bisulfate is C11H9O5SNa and is arranged in a more aromatic fashion
Menadione Sodium Bisulfate
Potential Acute Health Effects:
Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation
(lung irritant).
Potential Chronic Health Effects:
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: 3 (Not classifiable for human.) by IARC.
MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells.
TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available.
The substance is toxic to kidneys, lungs, liver, mucous membranes.
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.
Sodium Bisulfate
Potential Acute Health Effects:
Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Hazardous in
case of skin contact (corrosive, permeator). The amount of tissue damage depends on length of contact. Eye
contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.
Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing
and coughing. Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.
Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by
itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering.
Potential Chronic Health Effects:
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast.
TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
From what more research i have done, the Sodium Bisulfate is added to the Menadione in order to make it water soluble.
Menadione on it's own is what triggers the production of vitamin K, the sodium bisulfate is just sued to allow it to disolve in water. Sodium Bisulfate by itself is not toxic, and does have a very acidic tendency, and in the right concentrations can be as acidic as sulfuric acid from which it is derived.
Menadione on its own has a chemical structure of C11H8O2 allowing the sodium bisulfate to drop an oxygen and latch onto the menadione group.
Now sodium bisulfate in itself is not hazardous, but Menadione Sodium Bisulfate and legally be placed in the ingredients list of a pet food as "Sodium Bisulfate" as that is a more common chemical name for the substance.
I am trying to post more info but it won't let me. So here are the links to the information i am trying to discuss:
More Info:
Effects of K3:
(http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione)
K3 in dog food:
(http://www.naturalnews.com/024244.html)
This explains the reaction that is most likely used to make Sodium Bisulfate:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate)
More Info on food:
(http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossar ... sodium.htm)
And one of my favorite sites for chemical ananlysis:
(http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLM4309)
(http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924604)
More Info:
Effects of K3:
(http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione)
K3 in dog food:
(http://www.naturalnews.com/024244.html)
This explains the reaction that is most likely used to make Sodium Bisulfate:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate)
More Info on food:
(http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossar ... sodium.htm)
And one of my favorite sites for chemical ananlysis:
(http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLM4309)
(http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924604)
CAT FOOD WITH MENADIONE SODIUM BISULFATE (K3)
These foods contain Menadione (K3) and are not good to feed your pet.
CAT FOOD WITH SODIUM BISULFATE (Possible K3)
Food with Sodium Bisulfate may be okay for your pet. Please contact the pet company to see if they use any artificial vitamin K or Menadione before using.
Chicken Soup for the Cat Lovers Soul
(Only Adult Cat and Adult Cat Light Formula - Senior Cat Hairball does not contain NaHSO4)
http://www.chickensoupforthepetloversso ... t_formula/
Iams
http://www.iams.com/iams/premium-pet-fo ... g-food.jsp
CAT FOOD WITH SODIUM BISULFATE (NO K3)
This food contains sodium bisulfate but does not contain menadione, and is safe for your pet.
These foods contain Menadione (K3) and are not good to feed your pet.
CAT FOOD WITH SODIUM BISULFATE (Possible K3)
Food with Sodium Bisulfate may be okay for your pet. Please contact the pet company to see if they use any artificial vitamin K or Menadione before using.
Chicken Soup for the Cat Lovers Soul
(Only Adult Cat and Adult Cat Light Formula - Senior Cat Hairball does not contain NaHSO4)
http://www.chickensoupforthepetloversso ... t_formula/
Iams
http://www.iams.com/iams/premium-pet-fo ... g-food.jsp
CAT FOOD WITH SODIUM BISULFATE (NO K3)
This food contains sodium bisulfate but does not contain menadione, and is safe for your pet.
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To avoid confusion the only CSCLS with Sodium Bisulfate in it is the Adult Cat formula, And the Adult Cat Light formula...The Senior Cat Hairball Control seems fine.azyrios said:
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591 Posts
Oh thanks for the links those will be very useful!!!
It should be Illegal for them to put stuff like that in any pet foods!
Thanks for everyone's input It's all very useful.
It should be Illegal for them to put stuff like that in any pet foods!
Thanks for everyone's input It's all very useful.
I always take warnings about 'chemical' ingredients like this with a grain of salt (er, no pun intended).
In a nutshell, it's an acid, it's used to control the pH of the pet food (which is quite important for cats). Is it harmful? Well, it's probably safe to say that it can be.
But consider another acid I'm sure you're all familiar with, hydrochloric acid. Great for taking rust off of steel and skin off of your hands. You probably don't want to take a swig from a bottle of this stuff. Yet at the same time, it's abundant in your stomach, and plays a vital role in digestion.
The point is, quantity always matters. Even water can kill you if you drink too much, too fast (the excess water makes your brain swell up, pressing outward against your skull and killing you).
Granted, there's some acids that you should probably avoid altogether. Prussic acid, for example. Is sodium bisulfate like prussic acid, or more like ascorbic acid? I don't know.
One thing that does stand out to me, though, is how high it is on the ingredient list it is on those Chicken Soup varieties. I mean, it's listed ahead of kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, and parsley flakes. Those are 'food' ingredients, and not 'contains a trace of these minerals' ingredients. So either that's quite a bit of sodium bisulfate, or the amount of those 'food' ingredients is so small that you wonder why they bother putting them in at all. If it's just being used to correct the pH, they apparently have a lot of correcting to do from the rest of their ingredients. If I were in charge of formulating that cat food, I'd look at reducing/eliminating some of the more alkaline ingredients, rather than dumping a bunch of acid in to counteract them.
In a nutshell, it's an acid, it's used to control the pH of the pet food (which is quite important for cats). Is it harmful? Well, it's probably safe to say that it can be.
But consider another acid I'm sure you're all familiar with, hydrochloric acid. Great for taking rust off of steel and skin off of your hands. You probably don't want to take a swig from a bottle of this stuff. Yet at the same time, it's abundant in your stomach, and plays a vital role in digestion.
The point is, quantity always matters. Even water can kill you if you drink too much, too fast (the excess water makes your brain swell up, pressing outward against your skull and killing you).
Granted, there's some acids that you should probably avoid altogether. Prussic acid, for example. Is sodium bisulfate like prussic acid, or more like ascorbic acid? I don't know.
One thing that does stand out to me, though, is how high it is on the ingredient list it is on those Chicken Soup varieties. I mean, it's listed ahead of kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, and parsley flakes. Those are 'food' ingredients, and not 'contains a trace of these minerals' ingredients. So either that's quite a bit of sodium bisulfate, or the amount of those 'food' ingredients is so small that you wonder why they bother putting them in at all. If it's just being used to correct the pH, they apparently have a lot of correcting to do from the rest of their ingredients. If I were in charge of formulating that cat food, I'd look at reducing/eliminating some of the more alkaline ingredients, rather than dumping a bunch of acid in to counteract them.
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Just an update, Chicken Soup uses only sodium bisulfate, not menadione sodium bisulfate (the dangerous stuff). Plain sodium bisulfate is used, as Toe said, to regulate animal's urine pH levels.
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