Trying this again - Hedgehog Central Hedgehog pet care & owner forum
Hedgehog Central GalleryForum Archives Facebook Link

Like Tree7Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-30-2015, 03:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 139
Default Trying this again

I know I've posted threads on Liam's condition before, but I'm out of options and would like to gather opinions on what to do next. So I'll start from the beginning.

I got Liam on February 7th, 2015 from Greenacre Animals (this is their website http://www.greenacresanimals.com/Hedgehogs.php ). The lady who sold him to me was not a professional hedgehog breeder (or at least I don't think she is, although she is USDA licensed). She told me he was about a month old so I just estimated his birthday to be January 7th, 2015 although now I am convinced he's was born two weeks prior to that as he was fully weaned.

When I brought him home, he was in a guineapig habitat cage (pretty spacious) with carefresh bedding. He had a water bottle, and was being fed Purina CatChow, then later Purina KittenChow (food I bought him as the seller never gave me his previous food). I believe the change of environment as well as food change stressed him out and messed up his GI Track as he was pooping slimy forest green, along with traces of blood. I brought him into a vet on February 14th where they did a fecal exam which came back normal, and a skin scraping which showed mites so he was treated with ivermectin. At the time I had no clue ivermectin was bad for hedgehogs so I trusted the vet and allowed him to give him an injection. When I got home I decided to research ivermectin and read all the horrible stories which, of course, scared the crap out of me. So I decided to switch vets and the following Friday I brought him into a new vet for him to be treated with revolution, and to have more fecal exams done as he was still pooping blood. The new vet was great with him and knew how to handle him. They preformed the new fecal tests for bacterial and fungal infections, as well as touched his abdomen for any unusual masses, etc. Everything came back normal but he was prescribed an anti-inflammatory twice a day for a week just in case.

The following Friday we went in for a recheck and everything was good. For about a month everything went smoothly, the only concern was him running his feet raw on his wheel which I treated by giving him a foot bath, cleaning and removing his wheel, and applying regular neosporin. Then on Monday, March 23, I decided to give him a bath, I filled up the bathtub with shallow, warm water and put him inside. When I did, he got water in his nose because he sneezed a few times, but then went onto running around so I thought nothing of it. When he was done bathing, I dried him up a little and then preceded to blow drying him on low heat from a distance. He was fine the rest of the day, but then the next day I heard him sneeze a few times. That was the only symptom so I just thought maybe his carefresh bedding was causing allergies so I switched him over to fleece. For the next day or so he seemed fine, an occasional sneeze, but nothing else. On the third day is when I noticed his nose was wetter than usual and it looked like a clear discharge was coming out of it. I freaked out so I called his vet and scheduled an appointment for the following day (Friday), but he told me to observe him and if he seemed to get better and was still active, and eating and drinking regularly then there was no need to bring him in.

Of course, that night as well as the following day he seemed to have gotten better and I cancelled the appointment. He was good until Saturday night when his symptoms seemed to return at full force, as well as some wheezing when he breathed. I called my emergency vet so I could bring him in on Sunday, and as fate would have it, that day their exotic vet wasn't in. So I called Liam's vet again Monday morning and was able to schedule an appointment that afternoon, but due to traffic I wasn't able to make it on time and his vet wasn't willing to wait. Luckily though, I called in the emergency center and they told me their exotic vet was in that night. I brought him in and they did xrays where it was determined that he had pneumonia in his left lung, which the vet believed was caused by aspiration. But, his right lung was perfectly healthy. He was given 3 antibiotical shots, nebulized, and I was also instructed to give baytril twice a day for ten days. I was able to give it to him up to the 6th day, but then I had to go out of the country and left him in the care of my brother, who supposedly did continue giving him his medication until the 10th day.

I got back on the 11th day and Liam was worse than ever. He had stopped eating and was wheezing a lot. I scheduled a vet appointment with a new vet for Thursday where I was given tribrissen to give to him for a month. Long story short, none of the antibiotics we had tried worked (baytril, tribrissen, amoxicillin, and clavamox) so we did another set of xrays that didn't show much improvement from the first set so we decided to try an antifungal (terbinafine in conjunction with clavamox). Towards the end his vet seemed like he was tired to see us again and no longer wanted to help, so I brought him to another vet who said the best thing we could do now was a culture swab. He preformed the swab and it came back as "high bacterial and yeast build up" and he prescribed baytril again as well as itraconazole for two weeks.

Its been about two and a half weeks since we started the new medications, and I've seen little to no improvement. A few more things that may be helpful are: he has a 2x3 c&c cage that I use fleece for, and he has a water bowl. He is being fed PureBalance cat food, doesn't have much wheel privileges, drinks A LOT of water, eats about 1-1.5 tablespoons a night, and is still VERY active. I have also noticed that he will act as if he is chewing something then lick his nose, but when I open his mouth to check, I don't see anything.

Sorry this is so long and thorough but I just wanted to make sure I covered all the bases to see if maybe I skipped something critical the first time. If anyone has the slightest idea of what I can try next, even if its just to comfort him, please don't be afraid to share. I don't think he's anywhere near the point where euthanasia is the only option though. I will also attach his xrays, maybe one of you knows how to read them because I sincerely have no clue (the first four were taken on March 30th, and the last two were taken in July I believe)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Page 2 of 4_2015-03-30_17.44.25.jpg (55.9 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg Page 3 of 4_2015-03-30_17.44.29.jpg (48.7 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg Page 4 of 4_2015-03-30_17.44.32.jpg (61.8 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg Unprocessed_2015-03-30_17.44.22.jpg (51.5 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg alvarado, Liam0001.jpg (92.5 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg alvarado, Liam0002.jpg (166.3 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by Lilysmommy; 08-30-2015 at 06:11 PM.
liam1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-30-2015, 03:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
Member
 
octopushedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 498
Default

First off: Good god man, break that up into paragraphs! We use them for a reason.

Quote:
the only concern was him running his feet raw on his wheel which I treated by giving him a foot bath, cleaning and removing his wheel, and applying regular neosporin
This is a classic case of treating the symptom rather than the cause. If he regularly injures his feet on the wheel, the wheel is the problem. Get a bucket or cake-cover style wheel, like a Carolina Storm.

As for the rest of your post: I'm pretty sure none of us here are vets, so there's not much we can help you with. While we do encourage you to switch vets if you feel uncomfortable with their treatment, it sounds like you've switched four or five vets now all the while your hedgehog is sick. This all makes it much harder for the vets to do their jobs because they haven't been able to see his development over time, or how he's been reacting to medications. I know you're scared and probably upset things aren't being immediately solved, but you need to calm down and stick with a vet so he can get the proper treatment. All this constant shuttling around to new people and new medications is probably doing him just as much harm as good.

If you don't understand why a vet has done something, you need to talk to them. We can't read their minds. Same goes for not understanding the x-rays. Talk to the vet who took them. That is the only person who can properly explain everything to you. If you feel the treatment is not going well, talk to the vet, who can then prescribe new medication. Don't keep jumping from vet to vet. All of this is way beyond our internet forum paygrade.
octopushedge is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2015, 04:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by octopushedge View Post
First off: Good god man, break that up into paragraphs! We use them for a reason.

This is a classic case of treating the symptom rather than the cause. If he regularly injures his feet on the wheel, the wheel is the problem. Get a bucket or cake-cover style wheel, like a Carolina Storm.

As for the rest of your post: I'm pretty sure none of us here are vets, so there's not much we can help you with. While we do encourage you to switch vets if you feel uncomfortable with their treatment, it sounds like you've switched four or five vets now all the while your hedgehog is sick. This all makes it much harder for the vets to do their jobs because they haven't been able to see his development over time, or how he's been reacting to medications. I know you're scared and probably upset things aren't being immediately solved, but you need to calm down and stick with a vet so he can get the proper treatment. All this constant shuttling around to new people and new medications is probably doing him just as much harm as good.

If you don't understand why a vet has done something, you need to talk to them. We can't read their minds. Same goes for not understanding the x-rays. Talk to the vet who took them. That is the only person who can properly explain everything to you. If you feel the treatment is not going well, talk to the vet, who can then prescribe new medication. Don't keep jumping from vet to vet. All of this is way beyond our internet forum paygrade.
Thank you for your response. I should've broken it up into paragraphs and been a little more descriptive. He use to have a pet shop bought wheel that had the little "bumps" on the bottom, but he has since gotten a Carolina Storm Wheel. I don't let him wheel much as recommended by his vet, but I do at least twice a week for about half an hour. And I'll explain the vet situation more thoroughly.

The first vet I went to who gave him the ivermectin shot had no clue how to handle him. He used a cloth towel and would purposefully make him roll into a ball, which as you too would probably deduct, is that it isn't a vet I would like to be treating my little boy.

The second vet we went too, although great, is very far from where I live, and isn't open to a time when I can actually get to him. I was going to take him to this vet however when the problem first started but once again it came down to scheduling conflicts and so I had to bring him to an emergency vet as him and other vets wouldn't be able to get him in until a week later.

The third vet I went to was experienced and close so I stuck with him from April to about 3 weeks ago, and followed his instructions to a t. Like I said towards the end, he acted like he didn't want to see us or help, and I wasn't going to continue to pay for bad service.

That's when I decided to bring him to the vet we are currently with.

Although I agree that this is far beyond the forums paygrade, I still choose to ask as one of the members may have some insight on the situation, and might even know how to read xrays, if even vaguely. I also thought to add the xrays for future reference.

How's that for paragraphs
liam1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-30-2015, 06:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
Lilysmommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 11,963
Default

I edited your first post to break it up into paragraphs. Don't worry about it, it's easy to not pay attention to something like that when you're stressed out, worried, and focusing on getting all of the information down!

I'm so sorry you and Liam are still having so many problems. I'm not sure I have any advice for you, unfortunately. Health isn't my strong point & I don't have much experience with many health issues with hedgies. The other admins have more experience with that kind of thing, especially Nancy and Kalandra...maybe they'll have some ideas?

Have you notified the most recent vet that Liam doesn't seem to be improving with the current treatment? Are you continuing the treatment right now? If so, did the vet give permission to continue the treatment past the initial time they recommended?

Also while I agree that vets are best for health issues and that the forum isn't a replacement for that, it's clear that Liam's owner isn't using the forum as the first stop or as a crutch or replacement for a vet. That's what we try to discourage - people who have a hedgehog with blood or showing other emergency symptoms like limping, sneezing, lethargy, etc. and go to the forum to ask first, before even thinking about calling a vet. Liam has been seen by numerous vets by now & there hasn't been much headway made. In this case, I can understand wanting to see if anyone else has experienced something similar or has any suggestions to ask the vet about. Sometimes more eyes looking at a tough situation can help, even if they're not a certified vet. The other plus about starting a thread about an unusual situation like this is that it may help someone else in the future if their hedgehog has a persistent case like this.
nikki and octopushedge like this.
__________________
~*~*~ Kelsey ~*~*~

RIP my sweet Lily ~ 6/12/08 - 1/20/12
Lilysmommy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2015, 06:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilysmommy View Post
I edited your first post to break it up into paragraphs. Don't worry about it, it's easy to not pay attention to something like that when you're stressed out, worried, and focusing on getting all of the information down!

I'm so sorry you and Liam are still having so many problems. I'm not sure I have any advice for you, unfortunately. Health isn't my strong point & I don't have much experience with many health issues with hedgies. The other admins have more experience with that kind of thing, especially Nancy and Kalandra...maybe they'll have some ideas?

Have you notified the most recent vet that Liam doesn't seem to be improving with the current treatment? Are you continuing the treatment right now? If so, did the vet give permission to continue the treatment past the initial time they recommended?

Also while I agree that vets are best for health issues and that the forum isn't a replacement for that, it's clear that Liam's owner isn't using the forum as the first stop or as a crutch or replacement for a vet. That's what we try to discourage - people who have a hedgehog with blood or showing other emergency symptoms like limping, sneezing, lethargy, etc. and go to the forum to ask first, before even thinking about calling a vet. Liam has been seen by numerous vets by now & there hasn't been much headway made. In this case, I can understand wanting to see if anyone else has experienced something similar or has any suggestions to ask the vet about. Sometimes more eyes looking at a tough situation can help, even if they're not a certified vet. The other plus about starting a thread about an unusual situation like this is that it may help someone else in the future if their hedgehog has a persistent case like this.
Thanks Lilysmommy! I agree, I hope that sometime in the future we're able to help another hedgehog and owner who might be going through a similar situation.

When I went to pick up his medication of the 12th I was told the doctor would call me back in two weeks to see how he was progressing, but that's a phone call I'm still waiting on . Either way I'll call him tomorrow and inform him to see what our next step will be.
liam1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2015, 07:52 PM   #6 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
Lilysmommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 11,963
Default

Definitely call the vet yourself. They may mean well, but I'm sure they're busy and it can be easy for them to forget to check in on patients, especially when it's been a couple of weeks. Let us know what he says!
__________________
~*~*~ Kelsey ~*~*~

RIP my sweet Lily ~ 6/12/08 - 1/20/12
Lilysmommy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2015, 08:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,394
Default

Quote:
He preformed the swab and it came back as "high bacterial and yeast build up" and he prescribed baytril again as well as itraconazole for two weeks.
A couple of thoughts:

1. Did he just view the sample on a slide under a microscope and saw lots of bacterial and yeast build up or did he perform a culture on the sample? If it hasn't been done yet, I'd still ask about getting a culture done. A culture will tell you what type of bacteria is present. Then a sensitivity test should be done on that culture. A sensitivity test will tell you which medication does the best job.

The major problem with a culture is that its better done when the animal is off of medication to ensure that the test results do not yield a false negative.

2. If a culture was done.. I have had cultures done after the first round to determine if we were still dealing with the same problem. Sometimes bacterial infections are covering up the underlying problem that caused the infection and you continue to chase the wrong problem.

3. Call your veterinarian. Vet's get busy and time gets away from them. Don't hesitate to call and give him an update. Sometimes they want to see the animal again, and sometimes they will change the medication course.
Lilysmommy likes this.
__________________

Snuffle!
Kalandra is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2015, 08:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
shinydistraction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,538
Default

Nothing useful to add myself, but I have to say the xrays are interesting. My vet had me thinking that an xray done on a hedgehog would be difficult to see anything because of all the quills. If I understood well enough what I'm actually looking at I would think that these would be pretty easy to read. Thank you for sharing them.
writergirlmel likes this.
shinydistraction is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2015, 10:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalandra View Post
A couple of thoughts:

1. Did he just view the sample on a slide under a microscope and saw lots of bacterial and yeast build up or did he perform a culture on the sample? If it hasn't been done yet, I'd still ask about getting a culture done. A culture will tell you what type of bacteria is present. Then a sensitivity test should be done on that culture. A sensitivity test will tell you which medication does the best job.

The major problem with a culture is that its better done when the animal is off of medication to ensure that the test results do not yield a false negative.

2. If a culture was done.. I have had cultures done after the first round to determine if we were still dealing with the same problem. Sometimes bacterial infections are covering up the underlying problem that caused the infection and you continue to chase the wrong problem.

3. Call your veterinarian. Vet's get busy and time gets away from them. Don't hesitate to call and give him an update. Sometimes they want to see the animal again, and sometimes they will change the medication course.
Hey Kalandra thanks for the response! He did perform a culture and sensitivity test. I think that's what determined that baytril and the antifungal (I forgot the name!!) were the route to go. I'll be calling him tomorrow and will make sure to ask what type of bacteria and yeast are the ones present. And as for your second point what exactly do you mean by that? Sorry a little confused! I'll consult with the vet first thing tomorrow and let you guys know what we discuss. Thanks for everyone's feedback!
liam1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2015, 10:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shinydistraction View Post
Nothing useful to add myself, but I have to say the xrays are interesting. My vet had me thinking that an xray done on a hedgehog would be difficult to see anything because of all the quills. If I understood well enough what I'm actually looking at I would think that these would be pretty easy to read. Thank you for sharing them.
No problem!! Glad you were able to get something out of it! I find looking at them so incredibly interesting.
liam1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hedgehog Central Hedgehog pet care & owner forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in




Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:54 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
PetGuide.com
Basset Hound Forum Doberman Forum Golden Retriever Forum Beagle Forum
Boxer Forum Dog Forum Pit Bull Forum Poodle Forum
Bulldog Forum Fish Forum Havanese Forum Maltese Forum
Cat Forum German Shepherd Forum Labradoodle Forum Yorkie Forum Hedgehog Forum
Chihuahua Forum Retriever Breeds Cichlid Forum Dart Frog Forum Mice Breeder Forum