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Educate Me!

6K views 19 replies 5 participants last post by  gloriarae 
#1 ·
I want to eventually get into breeding, and I want to take all the proper routes. I have some questions! Before you think I sound stupid...we all start somewhere! :D Please be patient with me. I'm a very fast learner!

1. I have pet hedgies right now. If I wanted to be licensed, and wanted to get a breeding pair to start with, how do I know if they're related or not?

That leads to...

2. I read the code of ethics and it says to not breed closely related...is there a degree of separation to follow? Why wouldn't one just strictly breed unrelated hedgehogs? Is the pedigree that narrow for all hedgies?

3. If I wanted to get setup for it, where do I find environmental requirements?

4. Are breeding bins required? I haven't ever liked them...even when I did snakes. Why not a ton of tanks or cages where they can see out??

5. How does the licensing process go? Does someone come to your house for an inspection and you fill out paperwork or what?
 
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#2 ·
I can answer a couple of the questions anyway, and I'm sure one of the breeders will be along soon. I'm glad you're taking the time to learn the correct way to go about breeding and asking questions before you get started in it. :)

1. You'll want to check with other reputable, responsible breeders to get breeding quality hedgehogs from them. You'll be able to tell relation and health background by getting the pedigree of the hedgehog - the relationships will show right in the pedigree, if any names match, and if you look up the names in their family history (I'm not sure on what website), it'll tell you the cause of death, so you can check for WHS. Those two things (relation and WHS) are two extremely important reason to make sure any hedgehogs that are bred have pedigrees, clean histories, and come from a good breeder. If you get a mentor before you get into breeding, your mentor can vouch for you to other breeders (with so many backyard breeders, reputable breeders can be hesitant to sell breeding pairs to anyone they're not sure of), and can help you research other breeders and recommend someone to check out for a breeding pair. It's really recommended to have a mentor in general - they can also help you with answering questions, giving middle-of-the-night advice when there's no one on the forums, and so on.

2. I know the biggest thing, obviously, is not breeding brother/sister, daughter/father, etc. I'm not sure past that what's considered acceptable or dangerous, such as cousins, etc.

3. Not sure on this one either, sorry.

4. As far as I know, they're not required. I know a few breeders that use much different cages for their hedgehogs than breeding bins.

5. To get USDA licensed (which you're required to be in order to have more than 3 breeding females), yes, I've seen mentions of an inspection, with numerous rules and regulations that need to be followed in order to have it go well. If you find a mentor, I'm sure they'll be able to help you out with that kind of thing, and the breeders on here will probably know more as well.
 
#3 ·
Thank you for your reply! :) I'm looking into the Hedgehog Registry as we speak! :) I'm hoping to find a breeder who can walk me through the process and their experiences, even if I decide that it's not for me.

I see your signature and was curious...do you have a Hedgie at present time?
 
#4 ·
I don't, unfortunately...I lost Lily this past January, and I don't really have the finances to afford a hedgehog right now. My dad also doesn't want me to get anymore animals while I'm living at home, so...It'll likely be awhile before I can get another, as much as I hate that. I'm dying to be a rescue home for some needy hedgehogs. ><
 
#5 ·
Awwwh! :( I'm sorry!

When I moved out, I went a little nuts.

All I wanted was a rabbit. ONE rabbit. LOL.

At one time, I had 16 critters in my apartment.

Since I've been captured by Hedgies, I've cut it more than in half (some by rehoming, most died of old age and I didn't get more), in hopes of learning the proper means of breeding Hedgehogs.

We'll see. :)
 
#6 ·
:lol: Yeah, I'm going to have to exercise a LOT (seriously a LOT) of self control when I move out not to go adopt every animal off Craigslist. I'm hoping to start with at least a hedgehog, a snake, and maybe a bearded dragon, depending on finances and time and all that important stuff. But it will partly depend on what actually needs rehoming near me at the time. I'm pretty determined that all future pets will be rescues/rehomes only, and I have a soft spot for animals that tend to be misunderstood "fad pets" or have special needs or considerations that a lot of people might be iffy on - reptiles, birds, hedgehogs, ferrets, sugar gliders, etc.
 
#7 ·
Reptiles are actually my specialty. :)

I'm currently down to two Beardies and a Veiled Chameleon. I must admit that I bought the Chameleon, but I rescued/adopted the two Beardies. :)

I had two snakes, and decided it better to rehome them to someone more experienced than I (they, for some reason, started getting aggressive, despite my handling). If any animal ever leaves my care, I take down information and check in on them at least once a week at first.

I just rescued a Sphinx (hairless) cat from a Feline Rehab and Rescue organization. He is SO grateful. I've never seen an animal show so much gratitude! If I try to pull my hand away from petting him, he reaches up with his foot and grabs my hand!

Actually...I have a picture of it. LOL!
 

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#8 ·
1. You get breeding quality hedgehogs from a reputable breeder. They'll come with pedigrees (4 or 5 generations is standard). I suggest having a pedigree software - personally I use PexEd by Breedmate, but there are one or two others out there, though from my understanding they have fewer capabilities. My method is to enter any pedigrees into the database that I can get hold of, so I essentially have a huge web of hedgehog relations that I can use for reference. Most of the time when I get a new pedigree, after I input the 4-5 generations into the system, I actually know their background going back 10-15 generations or more. Pedigree on its own isn't enough, you need to know what to look for. There's no website to look names up on, but you can contact the IHR and send the pedigrees to be inspected. They'll let you know if there's anything questionable or any names they recognize that you should avoid. You should also have them looked at by a breeder who knows what to look for, because the IHR only has information on registered hedgehogs, so it's best to use two sources to get the most complete opinion. I have, multiple times, seen WHS names in pedigrees. I was lucky with my mentor and the information she was able to give me, but most new breeders are not going to be able to recognize WHS names at a glance, so you need to have the peds looked at by someone who has experience with that.

2. The best method to tell how closely two hedgehogs are related is the inbreeding coefficient. Any pedigree software worth its price tag is going to be able to calculate that for you. This is part of why it's good to know more than 5 generations. The inbreeding coefficient is going to be a percentage. Anything over 6% is considered inbred, but most breeders aim for much lower than that. The lower the better, really. I keep a spreadsheet with males along one axis, females on the other, and all of their COI% kept track of there. Any pairings that will produce offspring over 3% I won't do, but the majority of pairings I choose fall under 1%. I would be willing, for instance, to do a pairing in the 2-3% range if I have a specific reason, such as being interested in a color outcome, and under 3% is distant enough that there won't be any problems from it. But, it's good to be in the habit of going as low as possible. Hedgehogs are no longer able to be imported from the wild, so what we have in North America is what we have - it's very difficult to find a pairing with absolutely no relation (although if you only know 5 gens going back, it might appear to be the case, when in fact they're really somewhere under 1%, but not a perfect 0%). For comparison, most purebred show-line dogs are around 10-12%. A pairing of father x daughter or full siblings is going to be about 25%. Daughter x grandfather is going to be around 12-13%. And so on.

3. When you decide to apply for a USDA license, you can send in a request for the application material. This will include a booklet that outlines all the information and requirements. For hedgehogs, it's fairly straight-forward. Things like proper ventilation, upkeep. Cages have to be clearly marked with the individual's information. Food containers have to be sealed and clearly marked. You have to keep track of paperwork, that sort of thing.

4. There aren't breeding bins the way that there are breeding container for snakes. Large sterilite bins are a cage type a lot of breeders use because they're the cheapest option for that amount of space, and they're very easy to transport and clean, and you can see into them easily, etc. Some other breeders use other cage types, it depends on personal preference. When the breeding actually takes place, sometimes the male or female is moved into the cage with the other, but it's better to put them both into a separate cage because that way neither of them feels like their space is being invaded. Most breeders then use the females cage as the one where the babies are birthed and raised. If they're not already using substrate bedding for all of their hedgehogs, the mother is put on substrate about a week before she's due, because it's better for nesting purposes and for reducing odor (since you can't clean the cage until the babies are weaned). I usually use liners and bags, so when the females are put on substrate, I switch those out for a nest box. Some people use igloos for the nesting area. The details are personal preference.

5. 1. Request application materials. 2. Make sure everything is within the guidelines (touched on in #3). 3. Make an appointment for a vet to come do a home inspection. They have to go over some things with you and mark them off on a list, then fill out some paperwork. 4. You keep the vet paperwork with you and send in the rest of the application. There's a small application fee. 5. A USDA inspection agent contacts you to make an appointment for the first inspection. 6. Inspection happens. You get approved. 7. They email you a piece of paperwork saying you've been approved. You confirm that it's been received. 8. You get a confirmation in the mail, including instructions for paying the appropriate license fee. You send the license fee. 9. When the license fee is received and processed, they send you the approval materials, including a certificate stating your license number. 10. You then have (roughly) annual, surprise inspections.
 
#9 ·
Do breeders typically have their own buildings for Hedgies, then? It doesn't seem like they would approve of breeding out of the home. Or do they?

Right now my Hedgies are in 40 gallon glass tanks with screen tops. I love this because it gives each a lot of space with lots of room for running and playing and toys. Plus... I get to see! Is tuere anything wrong with this setup?


The software... I'm getting overwhelmed lol. I don't know Excel. Where do you get the Pedigree software?

The computer thing may have just put a stop to this for me. And I consider myself pretty tech savvy!


How long does the process generally take? How much is the software?
 
#11 ·
I paid $80 for the full version of PedEx. There's a simpler version for less, I don't know how it compares, but I've been more than pleased with the one I use and the price was more than worth it for how much it does and how much I use it. One big thing for me was that my mentor was able to give me a copy of her pedigree database because I bought the same software she uses, so I started out with a ton of information rather than beginning from scratch. Right now I have just under 3000 individual entries (records for individual hedgehogs) in my database, and that's about 3x as much as what I first "inherited" from my mentor.

Most breeders do it out of the home, but if you have more than one breeding pair (or even if not), a hedgehog room is pretty much necessary. You won't get very far breeding if you have your females in your bedroom or living room, with how sensitive they are when they've recently given birth. Some larger breeders have separate buildings, or several rooms. It completely depends on what they have to work with and their personal preferences.

Aquariums and tanks aren't recommended because they have very poor ventilation. The fumes from urine and feces stay in there. They're also designed to hold in moisture and create a humid environment, which can be problematic and cause respiratory problems. The glass gets cold and that can be a problem with hibernation attempts. They're also very heavy, which can be a huge pain for cleaning. Large sterilite bins are a much better alternative.

Typically the whole thing takes a few months for the application, getting everything ready, getting the vet inspection, and then after the USDA inspection itself it'll be another 10-14 days before you receive the license number. You also can't apply until you have more than three breeding females.
 
#12 ·
So what constitutes a backyard breeder? Simply not having a license? I don't know what it is...but I've seen the term thrown around here. Is it someone who doesn't have pedigreed animals? Are you a b.y.b if your animals have pedigrees but you don't have a license? I'm just trying to avoid being one! What if you don't need that many females? Or is it required to be a legit breeder? How do you give that many hedgies individualized attention every day?
 
#13 ·
A license isn't required if you have fewer than 4 breeding females. There are some small but completely legitimate, reputable breeders out there who don't have licenses because they don't need them. A BYB is a breeder who just does things badly, the main thing being that they don't use pedigreed animals and don't pay attention to other important aspects of breeding. They may use pet store animals, or ones they've bought from craigslist, or similar. They often don't know some of the fundamentals of breeding or even hedgehog care - they do it just "because", stick a male and female together on a whim, or because they want some extra cash. They generally don't have websites or any policies or guarantees, and they don't care much (if at all) where the babies go, if the new owner is prepared or well-informed, and so on.
 
#14 ·
I understand. Does the community view the individuals who don't need licenses as any lesser? Surely not...if they're doing everything right...

Back to the housing...do the bins have to have a screen mod on the lid or how does that work? In my aquariums, I keep two large igloos each. A fleece pouch...and they are on Kayte klean and kozy. Ichange this about once per week. However... I want to do what is best for them!

What do you use for housing?

Also...if you are licensed, is food mandated or regulated?

What do you feed?
 
#15 ·
Also...is there currently any blood test or DNA test that can tell you a Hedgie's lineage? To be honest...both of mine are pets with no known pedigree. If I shouldn't breed them, I definately shouldn't breed them but regardless, I'd like to know where they have roots from.
 
#16 ·
Generally they're not viewed less if they're doing things correctly, but it can be difficult for a small breeder to get breeding stock. A lot of breeders are careful about who they sell breeding animals to and it can be hard to judge how reputable a small breeder is, so the most straight-forward way is to only sell to other USDA licensed breeders. In my experience this is more to discourage random people wanting to breed on a whim - we were able to purchase breeding animals from breeders whose websites said "USDA licensed only" because we had our website set up very professionally, with a lot of information, and when I contacted them I was very direct with my intentions and my goals as a breeder. So, it depends.

We use large sterilite bins. They give the most room for the least cost, they're easy to access and clean, and can be easily picked up and moved around. Part of the choice is because of how many hedgehogs we have - a smaller breeder will have different considerations. For bins, the lid is personal preference. Ours don't have them unless the hedgehog is good at escaping, but we also don't use igloos, just bags, so there's nothing they can use as a "stepping stool" to get out.

Food isn't regulated, but diet is something that's discussed during the vet check. They basically need to be fine with whatever you choose to use.

We feed a mix of 7 cat foods right now. They're all high quality and considered top-tier options for hedgehogs. 3 are chicken based, 2 are duck based, and the last two are lamb and turkey. Then there are two more kinds of food used for pregnant/nursing mamas and babies.
 
#17 ·
I'm probably about to sound very dumb...


How do you get started if nobody wants to sell to unlicensed breeders? If you have to have 4 females to get the license...how do you get someone to sell you the creatures when you have less than four, and no license? It just seems like a circle "You aren't licensed... I can't sell you animals." "I can't get licensed because I'm trying to get four females and I don't have them yet. Less than four females equals no license" "Well I can't sell to you because you have no license".


Does that make any sense?? Hahaha.

I'm not trying to be annoying...I'm just trying to be extremely thourough in my understanding.
 
#18 ·
You don't have to start out with 4 females and you don't need to be licensed unless you have that many. Mostly the stumbling block for new breeders buying from established breeders is that good breeders don't like to sell to someone unknown, and/or someone who has only been an owner for a very short period of time. This is where having a mentor to vouch for you helps. A mentor should be someone who has been breeding for numerous years and is well known in the hedgehog community.

I've always recommend that new breeders start out small with 1 male and a couple of females and see if they even want to be a breeder. There have been many people over the years who started out, had a couple of litters and decided it wasn't for them. Also, starting out small shows if there is a market in your area for babies and if not, you aren't stuck with a bunch of breeding quality hedgehogs and nobody wanting babies.

A mentor will also help you decide what caging, heating, nestbox etc options are right for you and why. What works for some people doesn't work for others but hearing the pros and cons of each will help you decide. :)
 
#19 ·
While I know that there is a big demand in my area...just by people really wanting to learn about hedgies and wanting my little accident babies. I have so many people interested who won't spare any expense in getting the proper housing and knowledge. As interested as everyone is, I don't want to just give a baby to someone who's putting up a good front. So I guess what I'm saying is that I know I could handle probably two females and a male, if I didn't breed them all at the same time and if I had only one male. The demand is high, but with me being so "picky" about where babies would go, I don't know if it's high enough to warrant having that many breeding animals. Plus...like you said...I really want to know if it's for me. So far, I wouldn't trade a moment of the stress and little squeaks for anything. I'm in love. :)

So I guess it goes back to the fact that I need to find a mentor. LOL.
 
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