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Old 07-04-2019, 05:40 AM   #1 (permalink)
Ria
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Default Change in ingredients

Holly has 3 foods for this reason. Unfortunately they have changed two of these foods !!

One now has loads of potato!! AND tomato powder as well as a few more herbs
The ingredients are now as follows
Duck 37% (Duck meat meal, Duck fat, Duck gravy), Sweet Potato (30%), Potato (16%), Pea Starch (4%), Linseed (3%), Alfalfa (2%), Beet Pulp (2%), Rapeseed Oil (1%), Yeasts, Carrot (1%), Minerals, Tomato Powder (0.5%), Seaweed Meal (0.5%), Herbs (Marjoram 167 mg/kg, Oregano 167mg/kg, Sage 167 mg/kg, Parsley 167 mg/kg, Rosemary 167 mg/kg), Yucca (200 mg/kg), Cranberry (100 mg/kg), Marigold (50 mg/kg
Analytical Constituents: Protein 27%, Crude Fibres 3%, Crude Oils and Fats 10%, Crude Ash 9%, Moisture 8%.

Do you think that it is too starchy now? Holly gains weight easily, and I like the fat but the starch from the potato might be too much and then the fat isnt important. As this makes up the most of the biscuit given and eaten, I'm a bit unsure now.

The other food ingredients is now as follows the lamb has reduced, they added grape pomace, and citrus pulp, (The tomato pomace was there but I was told as I onlt use 1g of this food it wouldnt matter)
lamb meal (11%), brown rice (11%), brewers' rice (11%), wheat, maize, maize gluten meal, barley, oats, animal fat, digest, soybean meal, soybean oil, flaxseed, minerals, tomato pomace, citrus pulp, grape pomace, spinach powder, vitamins, taurine, trace elements and beta-carotene. With a natural antioxidant (mixed tocopherols).
Analytical Constituents: Protein 22.9%, Crude Fibres 1.7%, Crude Oils and Fats 14.5%, Crude Ash 5.1%, Moisture 0%.

Anyway because of the grape pomace and citrus pulp do and the fact it now has less lamb, I'm thinking it may be better to change it now? It was recommended to me by other hedgehog owners and I was never totally convinced but now its so much worse! So would you agree this should be changed too?
The fat is really high which is another reason it was only ever used as 1g of the mix.

I have a few I've looked at, to change the duck, but I'll run that by here to make sure theres no ingredients that I missed that may be dangerous.
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Old 07-04-2019, 08:19 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I would still try the first dry diet and see how holly reacts. Each hog can metabolize different ingredients slightly differently, and holly may be able to digest the higher potato. While it is a bit more starchy, it’s at least a natural starch and there’s plenty of more beneficial ingredients to offset that.

The second diet doesn’t look too nutritious. I see a lot of starches and fillers as some of the main ingredients, including brewers rice which is a processed rice by product. Yuck! Also, there are a lot of acidic ingredients that have been added, and the grape can become toxic if given in large quantities. I would suggest finding a new diet to replace the second.

I don’t think the tomato powder in the first should be a big deal. It’s a pretty insignificant ingredient and the fact that it’s a powder will automatically reduce some of the acidity.
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Old 07-04-2019, 09:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yea true. My main worry in the first one was it might be a bit to starchy now, I think I'll still look for another option of the duck incase I do need to change it, but with what you said I think I'll just get some more of the current one see how she goes.

I was never keen on using the lamb one to be fair, I was struggling to find one, I only give her 1g because its not very good in the ingredients or fat. But now its got even worse I'm definitely going to change it!! Loads of research to find a replacement!!
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Old 07-04-2019, 09:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Tomato is no big deal when used in pet food; so the inclusion of it wouldn't deter me in the slightest. However, there are a couple other problems with this food that would persuade me, personally, to change it if it were me;

Brewers rice is literally milled rice kernels; it offers very little, if any, nutrition and is used solely to 'bulk up' product. The fact that it is used in conjunction to brown rice also, means that at least 22% of that food is just rice - it is double the amount of rice as it is lamb. Additionally, with the inclusion of maize, maize gluten meal, barley, oats soybeans, this food is a largely composed of straight up filler ingredients; I dont think it'd be out of reach at all to assume that it is likely at a minimum 60-70% grain based, which is really not good for a hedgehog at all. and with the inclusion of animal fat (unspecified, thus absolutely no quality control whatsoever - that animal could have been sourced from anywhere)... eh, its an extremely poor quality food. I dont know who recommended it and why, but I wouldn't feed this to my hog at all - and certainly not if i only needed 1g of it, because there are so many higher quality options out there.

There a couple studies on the feeding of grape pomace to dogs that show it has no ill effect on renal health. Nevertheless; the food has way more issues, IMO, that are bigger than its inclusion of citrus & grape pomace. I'd 100% change it. I would keep the first food, get rid of the second. Perhaps look into adding a kibble with a much higher meat content too; like, 60% at least. Her diet is heavily veg/grain based, and I'd wonder if that's also contributing to her weight gain.
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Old 07-04-2019, 10:04 AM   #5 (permalink)
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To be honest I was never fully convinced but when I first got it I was still trying to get my head around things
I was going to look at changing it before they changed the ingredients and then life got hectic and I forgot to do so. But I'll be looking tonight

The other food she has is
Dried chicken and turkey (43% incl. 26% chicken), maize, sorghum millet meal, dried beet powder (4.6%), powdered cellulose (4.6%), fresh chicken (4.1%), pork fat, chicken stock, fructooligosaccharide (0.69%), potassium chloride, fish oil, brewer’s yeast.
Analytical constituents: protein 36.5% fat 12.0% fibre 6.1% ash 7.3% calcium 1.4% phosphorus 1.1% magnesium 0.093% omega-3 fats 0.27% omega-6 fats 2.4% taurine2000.0 mg/kg

This is the food I first swapped her to from one that made up all of animal derivatives and vegetable derivatives.
The pork fat is really low so I've never really been worried about it and she's done okay with the food.

Her weight gain came before this food was added, by another recommendation when I was still learning the food was good but it was 20% fat! And the other 2 (this one I just mentioned and the first from my first post) couldn't bring it down enough even though I was told it would! I just couldn't find a way that it was possible. In less than a month she gained 100g pretty fast. Without the crap quality food.

She's only been on this crap one at no more than 3g for the last month and that was because I was struggling to find another decent one in time.
But will be looking later when I get home
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Old 07-04-2019, 11:23 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Food choices can be pretty overwhelming - I think we've all been there, more times than once!

My concern is that none of the foods in her diet have a particularly high meat content; they're all less than 50%; most are closer to 40% (or less) which isn't a very appropriate diet for a hedgehog - and i'd wonder if this a contributing factor to her weight gain because with or without the lowest quality food, the meat content of her kibble is on the lower side to what we'd generally consider acceptable.

The minimum I've seen recommended is 60% meat content - and that's a minimum, so it'd ideally be higher than this. I would genuinely wonder if the 20% fat was the cause for her weight gain - or whether it was actually that her diet is very, very high in carbs for an animal who doesn't naturally consume much of them.

^ We obviously can't say for sure what caused her weight gain; or whether it was the fat content, or a combination of factors - the above is all just possibilities. But if she is still struggling with her weight even when her eating is controlled, I would honesty look into getting her on a diet with higher meat content and see if that helps in any way.

Last edited by Emc; 07-04-2019 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 07-04-2019, 11:57 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I've tried finding higher meat content foods, but there are none around apart from that 20% fat food and I dont want to do just that one food.

I give her steamed meat 2 times a week (low fat) and meat and veg (veg being very little and not starchy veg) so she is getting more proper meat than she is eating the biscuit.

I give her 12g total, 6g duck 5g chicken and 1g lamb of the biscuit. She eats a mix of it depending on her mood and eats 4-6g of biscuit in total.

Then I give her 5-6g steam meat of various duck, chicken, turkey lamb twice a week and 5g (3g meat and 2g veg) meat and veg once a week.

Plus she has her 14 insects per night

I know her biscuits are not the best but its really hard to find 3 with a high meat content at low fat.
But its far better than a lot of diets where the hedgehogs are eating worse (lower meat and even more fillers) and then getting no extra meat be it raw or cooked and less bugs than Holly.

I'm trying but all the foods I get referred back to are actually more like the lamb than duck and chicken one.
I have looked at every recommended brand I can find and get no where.

Holly mainly eats the duck because its duck. So a duck one is really ideal for her.

Her food before was worse. It was just made up of derivatives and fillers with 35% protein and 20% fat. Thats what she came to me on. So her weight was already pretty high for her age when I got her.

I've spent the last month and a bit and she's finally back to 600g can fully ball up which I honestly consider an achievement.

Now its keeping it down at that weight and I dont think increasing the fat intake will help to do that.
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Old 07-04-2019, 12:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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When I asked for a low fat duck food from people who are supposed to be good the recommended this

With Duck & Green pea: Dried peas (43%), pea protein, animal fat, duck meat (4%), trace elements, cellulose, soybean oil, minerals, fish oil, pea bran meal, digest, vitamins, trace elements and beta-carotene. With a natural antioxidant (mixed tocopherols)
Protein 32.4%, Fat 23.3%, Crude fibre 6.3%, Carbohydrate (NFE) 32.5%, Calcium 0.98%, Phospohorus 0.75%, Sodium 0.25%, Potassium 0.86%, Magnesium 0.102%, Taurine 0.50%, Vitamin C 111 ppm, Vitamin E 792 IU/kg, Omega-3-fatty acids 0.95%, Omega-6-fatty acids 3.69%, Crude Ash 5.6%, Beta-carotene 2.42 ppm, Vitamin A 6272 IU/kg, Vitamin D 629 IU/kg

Which I think is worse than what she has already.

I was then recommended this
Duck (30%) (Duck Meat Meal, Duck Gravy), Brown Rice (28%), Barley (20%), Beet Pulp (7%), Rapeseed Oil (6%), Whole Linseed (4%), Alfalfa (3%), Minerals, Seaweed (0.5%), Chicory (0.05%), Extract of Yucca Schidigera (0.02%), Mairgold Meal (0.005%), Rosemary Oil Extract (0.0005%).
Analytical Constituents: Protein 24%, Crude Fibre 4.5%, Oils & Fats 12%, Crude Ash 9%, Calcium 1.55%, Phosphorus 0.82%, Omega-6 1.6%, Omega-3 1.32%.

Which is again no better apart from it uses rice and barley, not potato

And after that I was suggested this one
Duck Meal (36%), Brown Rice (26%), Barley, Duck Fat, Pea Protein, Digest, Minerals, Yeasts, Linseed (1%), Lucerne, Seaweed Meal (0.5%), Prebiotic-Mannan Oligosaccharides, Cranberry Powder Extract(500mg/kg), Rosemary Extract (300mg/kg), Yucca Extract(100mg/kg).*
Protein 30%; Crude Fibres 2.5%; Crude Oils and Fats 18%; Crude Ash 9%. Moisture 7%.

Oh and then this
Rice, dehydrated duck meat, vegetable fibres, hydrolysed poultry proteins, animal fats, rice gluten, minerals, fish oil, soya oil, marigold extract (source of lutein).
Analytical constituents: protein 27.0% fat 11.0% fibre6.1% carbohydrates 40.8% calcium1.61% phosphorus 1.1 % magnesium0.07% dietary fiber 10.1% chloride 1.38% potassium0.8% sodium 0.8% omega-3 fats 0.79% omega-6 fats 2.45% calories that can be burned 349.0kcal DHA fatty acid 0.35mg


So which one of those is any better then?? Because non of those are any higher in meat content or lower in much else. And some of them are too high in fat ideally I dont want a replacement going over 12% fat because I can work with that as its still low.
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Old 07-04-2019, 12:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
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As for the lamb no one had any better than the one I have now.

And chicken I didnt ask, but I haven't found one thats low fat and high meat with little fillers.
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Old 07-04-2019, 12:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Totally up to you and if you're seeing progress, by all means do what you believe will work for her!

My personal opinion is that if she was fed a more species appropriate diet (that is; less carbs, more meat) that a 20% fat diet would still see her progress. 1-2 teaspoons (probably closer to 1 teaspoon/6g-ish, as she doesn't sound like a very active hog?) of said 20% fat diet and I honestly believe that you'd still see weight loss and overall better management of her weight - but again; your hog, so your choice.

Again personally speaking; but I just believe that the issue isnt necessarily 20% fat; it's that her food is too rich in carbs, and she's getting too much for her activity level. Eating fat doesn't necessarily = getting fat. Too many carbs however; and you'll struggling managing her weight. The issue is that hedgehogs dont naturally consume many carbs so what's going to happen is that she's going to store all that excess carbs as fat. I would chose a 20% fat diet any day over a diet that is predominately veg/grain based - but that's me.

edit; i didnt refresh the page, so I didn't see your other posts;

Personally speaking (and im using this term a lot because i want to stress that my post is purely IMO haha); I wouldn't bother with the recommendations given to you. Like, the 1st one is 48% rice and barley and only 30% duck. The 2nd one isnt the worst, but it also isnt great - can you order online? If so (or even if you could find then locally!), I would recommend that instead of that food, use something like Canagan or AATU.

The last one is trash, and I wouldn't bother with it at all. The ones I linked are higher than you want with fat... but again, i want to stress that fat doesn't necessarily = weight gain. I genuinely believe the issue with Holly is that her diet is far too high in carbs.

Last edited by Emc; 07-04-2019 at 12:45 PM.
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