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Old 01-08-2013, 01:14 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default 2nd hedgehog

Yay! I now have a cinnamon female. The breeder had 2 snowflakes which is what I originally wanted but one was rather huffy and didn't want to be social so despite the allure she might already be pregnant we passed on her, we aren't really ready for hoglets anyway, and the other was a pinball who initially seemed nice and outgoing but latched on to my hand twice and had to be pried off. I had to scruff it back in to it's pen numerous times for bouncing halfway out. I'm sure she'll make someone with a large cage, wheel, and willing to be very careful how they smell (I used the scented soap at the public restroom) a good hedgie but I decided she was too high strung for breeding. There was a reverse pinto who was a sweat heart but I don't like that much white. So we settled on the cinnamon who balled up when I picked her up but didn't huff and quickly came out to look around then laid in my husband's arms for half an hour while I checked out paperwork and talked with the breeder about breeding hedgies which she's been doing about as long as I've been alive. They got hedgehogs back when they were several $1000 each. Also she has a guy who makes special food for her hedgies and sugar gliders. I will post it up in the nutrition forum.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:19 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

One of the babies might already be pregnant?
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

It's disappointing that you decided not to heed the advice you were already given about breeding. I really hope you reconsider.

Whoever this breeder is, they sound completely unreputable and untrustworthy if they would be willing to sell a female that might be pregnant. You aren't doing yourself any favors by purchasing breeding animals from a breeder like that, or a breeder who would sell you hedgehogs for breeding without asking a LOT of questions, requiring you to have a mentor and prior hedgehog experience, and so on.

Are these hedgehogs pedigreed? Have you verified with the IHR and/or with other breeders that the pedigrees are clean?

I'm sorry, but you are going about this the wrong way and you aren't likely to get any support from people here. Irresponsible breeding is highly detrimental to the mothers, babies, and hedgehogs as a species. It's not too late to reconsider and start approaching this the right way.

Please. :/
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

They aren't so much babies. They were born in July. Yes they are pedigreeds like I said we were going over paperwork. I see no problem with selling a potentially recently bred hedgehog. We do it with other animals all the time. Even sensitive ones. I debated asking her if I could breed the one I was buying to her males since mine won't be ready for another 1-3months but unfortunately unlike some animals they don't just breed right away while you watch so I would have had to come back and it was a 3 hr drive.

I disagree that you need such and such hedgehog experience to consider breeding. I've bred many exotics and non exotics. Things most people haven't heard of. I can come up with the info I need to know. I've already taken 5 different breeding methods in to account and chosen one. I've paid attention to the temperament of my hedgies. Their pedigrees. Their parents and siblings. The knowledge and length of time the breeders have been breeding. Have a knowledgeable vet. Spent 5-6hrs per day for the past week reading on hedgehogs. Now I have a successful breeder to talk to as well.

From what I've heard the hedgehog registry is losing favor because of it's slow response time so most hedgehogs are not registered again. As for usda certified that means nothing except that some people have stuck their noses where they may not even belong. With the illegal seizures of animals lately for stupid reasons I don't trust any government or animal rights driven group.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

What would you define as stupid reasons? It seems to me that the USDA is there to make sure that you're not doing things that are unhealthy for the animals or for humans. If you're planning to do things that are unhealthy for the animals, like many in this forum seem to believe, it makes sense that you wouldn't want the USDA to stick their noses into your business. And while you say you have experience breeding "many exotics and non exotics", the people that breed hedgehogs seem to think that you don't have the necessary experience to breed hedgehogs and that you're entering into it in the wrong way. Since, they seem to care about the health and welfare of hedgehogs, and have no other motive, I'd say that probably says something important.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:22 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

The registry is caught back up again, and while they don't have any animal and their COD on record it's a really good resource to use if you can't contact individual breeders about lifespans, health concerns, etc. I highly doubt you actually know what each hedgehog in those pedigrees you have died of, how old they were, etc. It's important to know more about a hedgehog's background than just the names.

Being USDA licensed does not mean you're doing a good job for the particular species, but it means you're following the law. Someone who is USDA licensed is not "sticking their nose somewhere they do not belong", if you live in the US and you have more than 3 females, that's how it is, whether you like it or not.

I have to agree with moxieberry on everything. I see where you're coming from, and I realize that you are going to be able to produce hedgehogs. What I don't think you are willing to do is improve hedgehogs, which is where you're going to lose the support of everyone on this forum who cares about the health and well being of our pets.



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Old 01-08-2013, 05:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

This is where we will have to agree to disagree. I think so long as you aren't going backward and breeding inferior animals that aren't handled enough breeding provided there is a market is perfectly fine even if you don't have the top animals. Also you have to start somewhere. I started with some mutt rabbits and worked my way up to improving a rare breed. There's something to be learned from crawling your way up the ladder instead of being handed perfection already.


There have been several rabbit cases where rabbits were seized without following the law or giving the owner any chance to correct perceived problems over things like a dirty cage that is not even in use or animals that had to be put down being kept in the freezer to use as feeders. They got counted as dead animals when they were purposely put down. Feeders that weren't full because the owner was arriving home 5 mins later to feed them. It would be like taking your hedgehog because it ate all it's food last night and you haven't cleaned and refilled the bowl yet. Photos were even set up to make things look worse than they really were. The morons who "rescued" the rabbits took them from their swamp cooler building in open wire cages and put them in cat carriers where they promptly started to die of heat stroke. They took the survivors to a fairgrounds where they found they had to install a swamp cooler and even then couldn't keep them alive in solid cages and started to get urine scald on their feet from touching the bedding. I use solid bottom cages in our cool climate but wire cages are used for a reason when you put many rabbits in a building. This has happened so many times the rabbit society now has a closed rabbitry policy and will only meet people to sell rabbits so they don't get reported for some misunderstanding.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

I'm not going to "agree to disagree", I'm just going to disagree, thank you. I used to have the same mindset as you, but I've learned to love and appreciate hedgehogs far more than anyone who just thinks of them as another animal to breed ever will. I have a feeling you ARE going to be breeding inferior animals, since it doesn't look like you're buying from breeders who are conscious of who they're selling to or what they're doing. If you aren't trying to weed out WHS, you're a detriment to the effort the rest of us are going through. If you aren't keeping track of the health of the line, you aren't doing the breeders you'll inevitably sell to, any favors. I'm not saying you need to start with perfect animals. I'm saying you just need to know what you're working with and be willing to hold yourself to some beneficial standards.

I understand that there are a lot of conflicts for other species regarding law enforcement, people breaking in and releasing animals, people unknowingly bringing disease in and infecting your animals, etc. but those things aren't any excuse for not following the law or taking good care of your animals. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by sharing that information.



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Old 01-08-2013, 05:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

There's a lot more to it than just having pedigrees. You need to know what to look for, health issues in the various lines. Without having a mentor that can look over a pedigree and point out any problems, the IHR is your best resource - being dismissive of it doesn't help you, it might not be perfect but it has a lot more information than you personally do. If you have a tool that can help you avoid the possibility of WHS in the babies you produce, why would you NOT use it to its best effect? The IHR has helped me to avoid bringing "contaminated" lines into my herd several times, and provided me with information I was then able to pass on to other breeders as well. You say "as long as you're not breeding inferior animals" - how do you know yours aren't inferior? That they aren't bad lines? Because the person selling them to you says so? Have you verified this with other, objective sources? Do you have a list of WHS names to avoid?

When I first considered breeding, my mentor handed me a huge stack of pedigrees and necropsy reports - she basically provided me with a list of names to avoid, which allowed me to be selective with pedigrees and to avoid lines with problems. It sounds like you've been primarily driven by colors, instead of choosing specific pedigrees and researching them thoroughly, and that's the opposite of how you should be going about it.

As for selling a potentially pregnant female - if it's going to someone who has no prior hedgehog experience, let alone breeding experience, then yes, it's entirely sketchy and speaks very ill of this particular breeder. So having this person available to talk do doesn't mean much - I can't imagine you're going to learn much, or learn how to do things correctly, from someone who sells hedgehogs for breeding so indiscriminately.

No amount of "reading" is going to substitute for having hands-on experience as a hedgehog owner, let alone experience with breeding-related issues. My fiance and I spent something like six months visiting our mentor 3+ times a week, sometimes every day, to learn from her in an "apprentice" type situation before finally breeding ourselves. The first 10+ pedigrees of breeding animals we considered getting were inspected by her before I got a feel for it - and now I continue to be just as thorough and careful with pedigrees as she taught me how to be.

In some ways, certain preferences will differ from one breeder to the next. And in other things, there is a RIGHT way to do it. I believe, and I'm not alone in this belief, that breeding should ONLY be done to improve the species. There are too many people out there already who breed because they can, because they want cute squishy babies, because they just happen to have a male and female, or because they have experience with breeding other animals and think that puts them in a position to know what they're doing.

So I ask you again: please. For the sake of the hedgehogs. PLEASE reconsider how you're doing this.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: 2nd hedgehog

I agree with Moxie and LG 100%.

You are going to find that reputable breeders are going to tell you the same thing regardless of which forum you join.
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